You must sign in to post. | Bonus time? :: Jun 4, 2008 @ 1:02pm |
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 kaon
Joined: Nov 25, 2007
Posts: 11 | I just did a few games on bacon server and it suddenly added bonus time. Is this completely random or is there a system behind it?
In any case, it is incredibly flawed, remove please. If I want to play a game of chance i'd roll a dice, not galcon. | | Re: Bonus time? :: Jun 4, 2008 @ 3:27pm |
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 trivia21
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 72
Location: Budapest | I just did a few games on bacon server and it suddenly added bonus time. Is this completely random or is there a system behind it?
In any case, it is incredibly flawed, remove please. If I want to play a game of chance i'd roll a dice, not galcon.
That might be true in case you are not clearly winning only doing that crazy all out attack at the very last second to gain the most planets. I think thats more like rolling a dice in most of the cases.
Time bonus is only experimental at the moment I want to see whether it will reduce those time-bomb situations (sit-sit-sit-BANG :)) and make people rely more on their ships and galcon skill than their BANG abilities. You can take it as a question "ok you have the most planets but are you the real winner? can you keep it for another 30 secs?" If no, the others get a second chance. It might end up running amok again but that's just how timed games are. It won't if the winner's position is stable.
The system is called pseudo random :) I think Vince set it to 40%. | | Re: Bonus time? :: Jun 4, 2008 @ 4:45pm |
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kaon Joined: Nov 25, 2007
Posts: 11 | You know what you just typed there is a load of crap, just give it some thought and i'll help you with it ;).
You start the game with a GOAL. The goal is to have the most planets after 5 minutes, this means your playstyle adjusts to that goal. Especially the last minute, you (or the intelligent player at least) plan a complicated strategy to reach that goal. You spend every single ship into achieving that. If then suddenly the entire goal of the game becomes an uncertainty the game turns down to nothing more but a gambling game.
There is not a single positive thing the bonus time adds. We all love galcon because it of the complex strategy and patterns it allows with such easy recourses. You can plan different tactics and its very important to read your opponents, all of this suddenly depends on a stupid coinflip.
Now the game will almost always boil down to this: I have to choose between strategy A or B. A gives you the largest chance of winning when the regular timer ends but almost a garantueed loss if the timer extends, this of course because you wasted all your ships on conquering planets. Strategy B is the opposite, its certain loss when the regular timer ends, but almost certain win if the bonus time is added.
Such a choice is unmakable and completely ruins the point of the game. In a game of chess they didn't add a dice either, where you have to roll an even number or you cannot make your move. It completely defeats the point of the game: A deterministic battle of minds. I have played quite a few computergames that had great strategy but were ruined because some retard decided it would be fun to add a random effect to it. IT ISN'T!!! THINK ABOUT IT!
The moment i noticed the bonus time and i lost a game because of it (i had half the system and no ships, i yell to my friend "haha i win!" and then another minute adds and he conquers the entire map cause he still had all his ships) my friend and i instantly quit the server. There is no point playing it so i never will. I can only imagine every other sensible galcon player thinks the same.
Frankly, i'm amazed i have to explain this. My opening post was so short because it seemed very obvious how incredibly flawed this concept is. If i want to gamble i'll go to the casino or roll a dice thankyou. | | Re: Bonus time? :: Jun 6, 2008 @ 6:49am |
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trivia21 Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 72
Location: Budapest | LOL did you go all mad after losing that round didn't ya?
What you wrote only proved that you can see things only from your own viewpoint not thinking of or comletely ignoring what the other said/wrote. I think I should help you with that (joking, it just doesn't work with some guys) but after that the discussion is over for me as I don't think you could add anything new.
I wouldn't even try to help you to argue and not start calling me a retard, unintelligent, not sensible player that writes crap and whoose thinking needs your help etc etc. Just great my friend I'm not sure if I can take you seriously at all.
I don't want to make the same mistake I agree with you in some respects:
- everyone should have been informed about the bonus. maybe I'll change the topic on Vince
- As to the only argument you mentioned - strategy a and b, yes I know about them and I had seen this problem even before I started to implement timebonus. And I prefer strategy C!
The quarrel is all about how the timed games should end: simple timer or timer + bonus. (About the GOAL... just so you know my goal is to have FUN. I admit it might differ from player to player..)
The aim of the timerbot was to reduce the game length (form 90 to 5 mins) and to end standoffs. I'm sure it brought good things in the game but the leading strategy by now is to camp till the end and then burst out. I guess that's what you call strategy A. I think it is not fun especially because standoffs didn't vanish (end games are sometimes funny, much funnier with timebonus). Did you just call it a deterministic battle of minds? I would argue with comparing it to chess even if we were talking about normal galcon. But timed games... Maybe you can fool noobs suiciding on eachother time after time but if there are other good players the amount of planets tend to be very close in the endgame. Everyone that has played some timed games know how important roll luck plays there. BTW I guess you didn't know that if more players own the same amount of planets the winner is chosen randomly (and I was surprised how often two or more player had the same number of planets in the sitting period). Maybe camping as long as you dare then clicking as quick as your mouse is letting you is a complex and complicated strategy for you but not for me.
On the other hand if you rely on strategy "B" waiting for the time bonus you will lose in most of the cases as the frequency is always set bellow 50%. This way none of those strategies should work well.
What I hope is that people will realize that some time. Since the two possible reasons for camping are explained in strategies a and b I believe that the optimal one is to attack earlier. Of course there will be a hurry when the timer is bellow 10 secs but this way you must use your mind as well. You will have to pay attention to what the other probable winner(s) do. If they use all their ships then so do you and if bonus happens to be given none of you will have much more ships and winner may be chosen less randomly after another 30 secs of challenge. If they keep back you try to save about the same amount and none of you will have any advantage in taking planets quickly. I hope also campers will be less tolerated at the end.
Maybe you just didn't read that this whole thing is experimental. Although it was my idea I still don't like simple timed games. If we could find anything better that helps against standoffs I would be happy. I had another idea as well: a bot that starts to count down only when there is a standoff. It would solve both your and my problem. Maybe you weren't even here yet when I wrote the first galcon bot called StandoffBot. Sadly it could detect the sound only and didn't work out well.
So I'm not giving an ultimatum like you did, with time we'll see whether it will affect the game that way I mentioned. If it won't I completely agree that it's rolling a dice. I didn't have much time to play recently but I liked what I've seen so far. Until then I'm more interested in the opinions of those who didn't stuck up their nose after a singe round with the bot. thankyou | | Re: Bonus time? :: Jun 8, 2008 @ 8:42pm |
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 tinny
Joined: Jan 2, 2008
Posts: 21 | why not just add a 'bonus time' option to the settings? | | Re: Bonus time? :: Jun 9, 2008 @ 5:26am |
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trivia21 Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 72
Location: Budapest | why not just add a 'bonus time' option to the settings?
You should ask phil for that as I'm not the dev galcon :).
On the other hand I think I will suggest Vince to disable the bonus time... Not because of all the reasons mentioned before but because I think it's awfully stressing!! (for me at least) | | Re: Bonus time? :: Jun 9, 2008 @ 10:45pm |
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vince Joined: Feb 16, 2008
Posts: 59
Location: Atlanta | The little I've seen of them leads me to think it's an interesting development. It forces you to be more flexible and on-your-toes, because you don't know whether the game will end now or not. It also forces you to be more proactive in the early game, rather than just taking what you can. It pays a great deal now to jockey for position to get that extra production. In case the game goes on a minute after everyone thought it would end, those ships will be very handy.
The games get real interesting in those last thirty seconds, and I often think they're the best part of timed games.
All in all, I like them, and I was starting to get bored of the "vanilla" timed games. Good work, trivia! I'm gonna keep them! | | Re: Bonus time? :: Jun 9, 2008 @ 10:47pm |
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vince Joined: Feb 16, 2008
Posts: 59
Location: Atlanta | The little I've seen of them leads me to think it's an interesting development. It forces you to be more flexible and on-your-toes, because you don't know whether the game will end now or not. It also forces you to be more proactive in the early game, rather than just taking what you can and sitting for the whole game. You have an even less chance now of winning if you're small, so you have to be proactive and shoot for a better position. It pays a great deal now to jockey for position to get that extra production. In case the game goes on a minute after everyone thought it would end, those ships will be very handy.
The games get real interesting in those last thirty seconds, and I often think they're the best part of timed games.
All in all, I like them, and I was starting to get bored of the "vanilla" timed games. Good work, trivia! I'm gonna keep them! | | Re: Bonus time? :: Jun 11, 2008 @ 12:00am |
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vince Joined: Feb 16, 2008
Posts: 59
Location: Atlanta | Starting positions are random, too. If you want a completely skill based game, go play chess. Galcon simply wouldn't be fun without inequalities in the starting position. Maybe other randomnesses will help too, like this one which only manifests itself at the end of the game. The outcomes of real battles are as much dependent on luck as it is on preparation, materiel advantages, and strategic ability, probably more so.
Too many people are wont to simply dismiss any change without bothering to weigh the advantages and disadvantages. People complained about the timed games too. All I know is, vanilla galcon, compared to timed and bonus time games, anyway, bores the crap out of me. I never realized just how much many wins were dependent on one player throwing the game until I started playing them again. Good games are rare.post updated on Jun 11, 2008 @ 12:06am | | Re: Bonus time? :: Jun 14, 2008 @ 9:26pm |
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hellish48 
Joined: Feb 25, 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Chicago, IL | Starting positions are random, too. If you want a completely skill based game, go play chess. Galcon simply wouldn't be fun without inequalities in the starting position. Maybe other randomnesses will help too, like this one which only manifests itself at the end of the game. The outcomes of real battles are as much dependent on luck as it is on preparation, materiel advantages, and strategic ability, probably more so.
Too many people are wont to simply dismiss any change without bothering to weigh the advantages and disadvantages. People complained about the timed games too. All I know is, vanilla galcon, compared to timed and bonus time games, anyway, bores the crap out of me. I never realized just how much many wins were dependent on one player throwing the game until I started playing them again. Good games are rare.
I am in complete agreement with Kaon. This two happened to me twice, you purposefully plan a strategy in a timed game as to what you will do. That is why there is the timed games and the non timed where you have no time limit. Yes, you can camp and sit, but that happens in both. |
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